Interview: Mike Daniels

Head of Policy, Mike Daniels chats with Development and Communications Intern, Heather Graham, about our new film, Clear on Deer, and discusses the issues that Scotland is currently facing in regards to deer management and why it needs to change. 

Why did the John Muir Trust decide to make this film and what does it hope to achieve with it?

We have been lobbying hard for deer management reform and are delighted that the government is finally moving on this issue. There is new legislation coming in the next 12 months and we want the public to be fully informed and supportive - if the public is vocal with its support, the government is more likely to understand that this is an important issue and support the legislation too. We see this film as a contribution to the public debate to facilitate the necessary legislative change.

How was the process in creating the film, how long has the Trust been working on it and how did we ensure we displayed varying opinions?

Around 18 months ago we had conversations with external stakeholders and then internally with key staff. Over time, we developed a brief and put it out to tender. We awarded the tender to internationally acclaimed film makers, Mountain Media Productions, and worked with them to ensure the film, while making its point, met editorial standards in terms of fairness and balance.

Why was Libby Penman chosen as the presenter?

The film makers suggested Libby Penman as they had worked with her previously. She matched our aspirations for the film – to communicate with a general public audience, especially a younger audience, as this issue is long term and will affect generations in the future. She also had no prior bias towards the subject so was able to hear from the different perspectives and present them fairly.

How does the Trust balance ecological objectives with ensuring respect is maintained for rural communities?

At one level the answer is we need more deer culled, which in turn means we need more stalkers. However, the reality is the nature of their job and the nature of their role is going to have to change – we can’t manage with high deer densities any more. The culture around deer and their management is going to have to change. In many ways, that is happening regardless of legislation. Land is changing hands and new and existing landowners’ objectives are changing – diverting away from grouse and deer towards biodiversity and carbon sequestration. We need to encourage more community-based hunting for when we have managed deer to lower populations which will still require constant management to keep their numbers down.

Why is the Trust supportive of culling as opposed to using a different method such as contraception or fencing?

To begin with, contraception only works in a very confined area such as a fenced deer park. Using this method, you can dart the female with a hormone that stops them ovulating. However, to do this you have to get close enough to dart the deer successfully and ensure the animal gets the full dose, which is very difficult with wild animals. To make it successful in terms of population control, you’d have to dose the vast majority of the female population. In Scotland, there is roughly a population of a million deer, so therefore around half a million females. This hormone dose only lasts a year and would have to be repeated annually, therefore it’s not particularly practical yet.

Fencing, from a welfare point of view, is actually very challenging. What you're doing is excluding the deer from the areas they want to go to for shelter and food and therefore you concentrate their numbers elsewhere. This then creates a really poor area of vegetation inside the fenced area as it becomes too under grazed and outside the fencing the vegetation is intensely overgrazed with no respite. The other issue with fencing is low flying birds like capercaillie and black grouse - they often don’t see the fence before flying into them, causing fatal injuries. We have got fences in pretty much all our properties in some shape or form - it is a tool, but it is more of a sticking plaster to relieve the symptoms temporarily and is not really treating the cause. It's a pretty unnatural situation to have to use fences but unfortunately that is the situation we find ourselves in, hopefully temporarily.

How many red deer are on the land cared for by the Trust?

There are lots of challenges associated with estimating deer numbers. We tend to focus on counting trees rather than deer. We manage approximately 20,000 hectares in Scotland and our average deer density is about six deer per hectare at the moment. But we need it to be much lower than that – ideally, we need to halve the population across all our properties to be able to get the results we're looking for.

Is there a difference in the issues cause by stags as opposed to the hinds?

It is a very similar issue but there are subtle differences due to biology. Hinds are ‘hefted to the ground’ meaning they don't move more than one or two kilometres from where they're born their whole life - whereas stags move around much more. As they move, they are more exposed to the elements and due to their bigger body mass, require more food and shelter, causing more damage to woodlands by eating a larger proportion of tree saplings and bark. Therefore, stags do tend to be the ones that cause more damage to woodland especially during the ‘closed’ season in winter, whereas hinds are the ‘engine’ that drive population growth.

What is the reason for having different seasons?

The main season people are concerned about is the male season. These were originally designed by landowners and coincided with when the House of Lords went into recess and therefore when they were free to go hunting. This allowed them to enjoy their sport while preventing other people culling deer out with that period, thus maintaining the stags for them in their hunting season. However, currently these seasons are about to be reformed. There is still a bit of a parliamentary process to go through, but effectively by the 21st of October this year, the stag seasons will be abolished. With females the current seasons are meant to be for welfare so that they cannot be shot when heavily pregnant or have dependent young but the dates vary for different species and are currently under review.

Do deer culls only happen within the open season?

People who are managing deer for conservation or for agriculture or woodland (for example Forestry and Land Scotland, which manages all the state-owned forests), shoot deer in the (old) closed season. Traditional estates generally keep to the seasons, trying only to cull their deer during the ‘open’ seasons but some others will have areas of woodland or crops where they shoot some deer at different times a year.

If there is a deer overpopulation problem, why do we import so much venison from abroad?

One of the main reasons is the hunting seasons we have. These seasons mean that deer can only be culled at a certain time of year. The stag season is when the stags are in the rut - so in terms of venison, their venison is full of testosterone and doesn’t taste very nice so it’s not the best in terms of the quality. In terms of the quantity, if you're in the supermarket business and involved in supply chains, you want things to be predictable so you can have them when you need. Therefore, they tend to import from deer farms for example from New Zealand. There are some deer farms reopening in Scotland, but they don’t produce enough to meet the current demand.

What do we do with the deer which are culled on the hill?

Most deer that are shot in Scotland are eaten, either in Scotland or abroad. We do leave some deer carcasses on the hill where they are hard to extract, and it would cause damage to take them out. In nature, if a deer were to die of natural causes, the body would remain where it was. This allows for several other species which rely on meat as a food source such as birds of prey, foxes and even pine marten. It also allows natural decomposition of the deer, releasing nutrients back into the soil. Culled deer that we take off the hill must go to a game dealer to be processed, get packaged and then sent back out. Which in terms of a carbon footprint isn’t the most sustainable process and is something we hope to improve. There used to be a lot more game dealers in Scotland but due to changes in regulations and company monopolies there are now only a few remaining.

What about reintroducing predators?

The deer population is currently so high that even if all the natural predators were returned, they wouldn’t make much of an impact. In an ideal world we want fully restored ecosystems with predators and prey at natural levels.

Where do we think deer management will be in 10 to 15 years?

We envisage in 10 to 15 years’ time that we'll have a more natural size of population: as a broad rule of thumb, anything under five deer per square kilometre is ideal. With positive conversations with policy makers, I think that this timescale probably is a bit more realistic now. We are certainly moving quite rapidly in that direction. There is a recognition that excessive deer numbers are a huge problem especially in this country. Therefore, management needs to improve, and population numbers need to come down. The policy direction is very clear with new legislation coming in next year that will help to make that happen.

What are we doing in terms of policy work?

We're part of the Deer Group within Scottish Environment Link and collectively and individually we’re having meetings with government officials and being part of a wider movement, which is all getting some traction now. We need to keep pushing though as there’s going to be draft legislation coming out this autumn, and by this time next year, it'll be going through. This legislation will have some major changes in the way deer are managed. However, none of these things are assured and anything can happen in politics, so we have to keep focussed and work on any amendments. It can take a long time for legislation to become law but that's the only way it does happen. If you don't persevere, it certainly won't happen. It is a building process – you can’t just go in and create change immediately. It must be built up through a number of other elements – public petitions and surveys, individual conversations, and even things like this film – it’s not just one ‘magic pill’.

We must link what we're doing in terms of deer management to things like the Carbon Emissions Land Tax, or to climate change as a whole. All of these other issues end up playing into each other and are intrinsically interlinked. Woodland and peatlands are really important in terms of reducing carbon emission. At the moment, you can't grow a tree in Scotland without doing something to mitigate for deer to ensure the seedlings can survive the browsing pressure. In terms of peatland areas, trampling deer can cause a lot of damage to that habitat. To improve our carbon emissions our best tools are restoring areas of woodland and peatland so therefore, the deer become an even more pressing issue to deal with.

What can individuals do to help?

Supporting us and all the other the charities and organisations that are working towards this goal is probably the best way to help. You can donate to our specific Deer Management Appeal which will:

• Fund a community stalking feasibility study to ensure local communities can become a key part of deer management and benefits stay local.
• Fund campaign staff to amplify our messaging at this critical time of legislative change at Holyrood and Westminster.
• Create an education and outreach programme in schools to teach young people about the impacts of deer on our landscapes.
• Fund a public opinion research project to better understand concerns and support.

The other thing you can do to help is by writing to or meeting with your local MSP. This direct contact from members of their constituency has a massive impact. If they have even half a dozen conversations with people who are advocating for the same thing, that is really impactful.

Do we plan on making another film at all?

We had planned a second film looking at the importance of a just transition within the culture surrounding deer management and the changes facing traditional deer stalkers. However, such a film has just been made and we are currently in the process to see if we can showcase this on our film tour later this year.

Where can we watch the film?

You can watch the film in our Wild Space Visitor Centre in Pitlochry until the end of August. There are showings every day at 2pm apart from Tuesdays and it is free to attend. We recommend reserving a seat in advance to avoid disappointment which you can book here: Clear on Deer: Wild Space Visitor Centre Screening Tickets, Multiple Dates | Eventbrite .

We are also currently finalising the details of our Clear on Deer Film Roadshow which will be touring around different venues in the UK where we will show the film, have a Q&A session for guests and a chance to hear some exclusive updates from the Trust.

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